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Alison: This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We just heard from journalist Wright Thompson who investigated the story of Pappy Van Winkle the most coveted bourbon in the world. It's not cheap. A bottle of pappy Van Winkle is 15 year old bourbon will set you back about $2,500. In the wide world of whiskey, the variety and the price range can be a little daunting, which is why we've called in an expert spirits consultant Robin Robinson is the author of a book called The Complete Whiskey Course: A Comprehensive Tasting School in 10 Classes. He breaks down the whiskies of the world by region and offers some history and context along with a detailed guide to tasting and purchasing. I'm glad that Robin Robinson joins us for today's Ask an Expert. Hi, Robin.
Robin: Hey, Alison, how are you? Glad to be here. It's Robin here. Hi, Allison. Alison: Can you hear me? I don't hear Robin. Okay. Everybody else hears Robin except for me. So I'm gonna do a call out for listeners. And while engineers figure this out, listeners we want to hear from you. Do you have questions about whiskey? Bourbon or rye? Is the world of whiskey overwhelming to you? Would you like recommendation from our expert based on your tastes? Give us a call on 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. We want to know your whiskey questions if you want to know a little bit more about how it's made. A little bit more about the difference between whiskey and bourbon the E why and the why, Robin can let you know our number is 646-435-7280 646-435-7280. Or you can always tweet to us at All of It. WNYC Robin Robinson joins us for Ask an Expert Robin. Are you there?
Robin: I am here Allison. Can you hear me?
Alison: Yes, technology ain’t it grand?
Robin: Great to be here. Thank you so much. I really enjoy your show. So I'm very excited to be here.
Alison: Oh, we're so glad that you could join us. So I've got this book here. I came in to like, can you hear it? You can hear it just being rustled? Yes, it's quite substantial and quite beautiful in the top is divided into 10 sections or courses beginning with the basics of making and tasting whiskey. And we travel around the world, Canada, Ireland, Scotland. Why? Why do you decide to approach the book this way? And these 10 sort of Chapter/classes?
Robin: Well, it's interesting. If this was a collaboration between me and the publisher. This was a format that they've used before. For example, you may be familiar with Kevin's Zraly, Kevin Zraly wrote the big, the best selling Windows on the World Complete Wine Course. There was another writer who wrote a complete beer course. So the publisher said, ‘Hey, we need to actually have the trifecta of wine and beer and someone needs to write the whiskey course’. So they found me actually teaching whiskey classes in New York City. And it sort of seemed to kind of fit, you know, my format, the way that I approached it seemed to fit their format for their book. So you know, it was a happy union.
Alison: Well, how about how you do approach it? How do you suggest people use the book if they're brand new to whiskey?
Robin: Well, hopefully as a just as an all purpose reference book, it's not something that you have to read from cover to cover to cover, you know, in a linear fashion. You can open it up at any page and find something of value depending on let's say, for example, what's in your glass. So if you're drinking bourbon, you can turn to the American whiskey section and read about bourbon and rye and a history. I typically advise people to read the first two chapters. First two chapters is the history of whiskey, the production of whiskey as it's kind of done all over the world, and the maturation of whiskey and and some salient facts. So if, if we liken this to swimming in a swimming
pool, this is standing in the shallow end and kind of getting acclimated to the water. The second class is on tasting and smelling whiskey, which is typically the most intimidating part for whiskey people or for non-whiskey people. Everyone thinks that they have to be an “aficionado” or an expert or connoisseur. And they don't, they just have to follow a couple of guidelines and mostly, mostly respect the alcohol because it's not a glass of wine to stick your nose into otherwise, you're just gonna numb your nose out.
Alison: You quote a joke that goes whiskey starts arguments not because we drink too much of it, but because we can't agree on what it is. So with that in mind, I'm going to ask you, what is whiskey? That's sort of unfair, but…
Robin: Yeah, well, you know, whiskey starts out as grains, its grains that come out of the ground. And the four most likely grains that distillers all over the world have decided on are corn, wheat, rye, and barley. And then that gets crunched up and soaked in water, and then added yeast to it, and that turns it into a beer. So whiskey starts its sort of journey as a beer. But it's not a beer that you would typically drink, it's really just a grainy alcoholic soup, it's the alcohol that's critical because then you're going to put it into some sort of distilling device. And that could be either a big pot that goes back 5000 years, or it could be a modern column still. And essentially, what you're going to do with this beer now is you're going to heat it until the alcohol starts to strip off, before the water comes off in a vapor, because what you're going to do is separate that alcohol, and the alcohol is going to pull all of the flavor congeners out of that fermented beer mash, and in doing so, it's going to purify it. And so you start out with like, you know, 8 or 9% ABV of alcohol in the beer, and then you're gonna raise that up to it can go all the way up to 94.8%, and still legally be qualified as whiskey. So that's essentially what the distilling does. And then you're gonna put it probably in some sort of barrel for an amount of time, typically regulated by the government in which you're making the whiskey for. So in the UK and the EU, they specify the whiskey can't be called Whiskey unless it's been in a barrel or an oaken container for at least three years. Now, in America, you don't… you can make whiskey, you know, following the first couple of rules. And you could just call a whiskey and not even put in a barrel. Now, if you want to call it bourbon, it has to be put in a brand new, charred barrel for no minimum amount of time, and it can't be distilled any higher than 80% Alcohol. So there's all these different little kind of tweaks, different countries.
Alison: I'm curious, are those a matter of tradition? Or is there something else to those different rules based on the countries?
Robin: Yeah, that's a great question. And there's no real one answer in there. Alcohol is really a blend of tradition. It's a blend of some science, a lot of art, and quite a bit of trade protection, quite honestly. And it's interesting, though. So for example, something called straight bourbon is a minimum two years in a barrel. Bourbon doesn't have to be minimum two years, but it has to be no higher than 80% alcohol in the still. Now in Scotland, you can actually raise that up higher.
Alison: Why is that?
Robin: Well, there's a whole bunch of regulations there. But there's some tradition that said we want people to taste the grain. We want people to taste the corn, that's really, that's really what this is all about. And corn is a hearty grain. And it's going to go into that barrel for the longest amount of time and really get the impact of that barrel. So, it's at 80%. There's a couple of science things behind that, but mostly tradition in the United States. Prohibition just really messed everything up. And when when they came out of it, a lot of new rules were written on some of the old rules.
Alison: My guest is Robin Robinson, author of The Complete Whiskey Course A Comprehensive Tasting School in Ten Classes. We have a lot of phone calls. So let's get to a couple. Let's go to Dave online for calling in from Long Island. Hey, Dave, thanks for calling all of it. What's your question?
Dave (caller): Oh, thanks for taking my call. I love whiskey, partial to Scotch. But I've noticed lately that in some of my favorite bottles, I'm starting to see cork pieces floating around. And I've been thinking about like, putting it in other containers or using synthetic corks and I just wanting to know, like, Is there something I should worry about as far as changing the container it's in or changing to rubber or some sort of other cork and I don't want to mess up these wonderful whiskies that I love.
Robin: Yeah, so Dave, sounds like you may have some older bottles of whiskey of which you're going to get some cork deterioration. And sometimes, I mean, I've been in scenarios where while it just like all crumbles apart, something like that happens, it's best to find a replacement for that.
I actually just picked up at a trade show the other day, some rubberized corks that would fit in any bottle and that's like a perfect way to do it.
And yeah, typically what I would do, I would strain that out through a tea strainer into another container poured back into the bottle, and then find like a much tighter seal for that. Good luck.
Alison: Let's talk to Robin Morris plains New Jersey on line three. Hi, Robin, thanks for calling All of It.
Rob (caller): Thanks for taking the call. I like single malt Oban whiskey. Recently, someone offered Pappy Van Winkle 23 year old I couldn't tell the difference. As a beginner of bourbon hottie, how are you supposed to see the difference? And also, how do you enjoy bourbon like that? You know, it's such an expensive, you know, bottle.
Robin: Yeah, well, okay. So Pappy Van Winkle is what we refer to as a unicorn. And because it kind of flies up there in the upper atmosphere, and we try to, you know, we try to find it and bring it back down to the ground.
Pappy Van Winkle is a wheated bourbon. It's got a long story to it. It's actually very, very good bourbon. Something like that, I would probably drink neat, you know, and maybe one ice cube, depending on what my tolerance to Whiskey was. So what my tolerance to alcohol is, what the ice does, especially if you have like a really big cube and not the refrigerator ice because that's filled with air and that's just going to melt easily and become a slush. It's better to get one of those big cubes or a big sphere, which will melt slower and and kind of chill the whiskey down but also bring down the ABV, the alcohol, alcohol by volume. And for many people who especially if they're not whiskey drinkers, it's a great way to sort of slide into whiskey, it will release some aromas that may not have been there when they're neat. And the little bit of tamping down of the alcohol actually makes it a little bit more accessible for a lot of people. But if someone's pouring for you a 23 year old pappy Van Winkle
my three words of advice are “take your time”.
Alison: My guest is Robin Robinson, author of The Complete Whiskey Course A Comprehensive Tasting School in 10 classes. Listeners. If you have any questions about whiskey, bourbon, or rye; is the whiskey world overwhelming, you need a little bit of help you'd like a recommendation from our expert. 646-435-7280 is our number. We'll have more with Robin, and we'll take your calls after a quick break. This is All of It.
Alison: This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart, my guest this hour is Robin Robinson, author of The Complete Whiskey Course: A Comprehensive Tasting School in 10 classes. Our phone lines have filled up again. But I'm going to ask you a few more questions. Robin, you you write in the beginning of your book about the “miraculous rebirth of whiskey in the past few decades”. And I have to tell you, all of my friends who were design-y types, early adopters of everything on the front edge of everything are all drinking Japanese whiskey. Yeah. What's that about?
Robin: Well, so the Japanese have been making whiskey for 90 plus years, but no one would have known it up until about a good 12 years ago. Only Suntory had been exporting most of their their whiskies to the United States and that whole, you know, Bill Murray, type of “Suntory-time” thing was actually a real deal. Sammy Davis Jr. actually used to be a Suntory pitchman back in the in the 70s. And then slowly Nikka, which is sort of, you know, the Honda to Suntory’s Toyota, you know, in whiskey making; got into the United States and then a very prominent whiskey critic who, who publishes ratings every year, declared a 22 year old Yamazaki Sherry oaked Japanese whiskey as the best whiskey in the world and literally the floodgates just boom! just exploded. And that caught the Japanese whiskey industry off guard and they did not have that much whiskey, you know, stock like they do in bourbon like and you know, in Kentucky, there's actually more barrels than there are people in the state. And, but they didn't have that. So what's now what we're seeing now is a lot of whiskey coming from Japan in two different ways. One is that we're seeing whiskies come over made from rice. Now this is very unusual for the Western palate. Because whiskey is typically based on the four grains that I mentioned. However, rice is considered a cereal grain and so it legitimately can be called whiskey, it was typically made to make another Japanese spirit called shochu, which is typically an unaged rice drink. And instead of malted barley, they use a fungus called a koji. And now that's actually being aged to many, many different years and is being presented in the United States as whiskey, as Japanese whiskey.
As well as, and this is the controversy, as well as whiskies that actually originated somewhere else in the world. Now in Japan, because whiskey drinking was a very domestic thing. I mean, everyone drinks whiskey in Japan, they they kind of drink whiskey the way we drink wine and beer here in the United States, as a food accompaniment, you know, and typically in a diluted form with, you know, tea or fruit juice or water or something like that. But in Japan, they make so much of it, that they're essentially just importing Scotch and Irish whiskey from Ireland, Scotland, and some American and Canadian whiskies, and then blending them in with some of their spirits using Japanese water, bottling it there then selling it domestically. When they started, you know, a couple unscrupulous, maybe, importers have started to actually import some of that whiskey and then export it out the United States I mean export it out of Japan and into the United States. They would put a Japanese character on the label.
Alison: Oh, no.
Robin: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And sell it. Yeah, and sell it as Japanese whiskey. So it's now what had happened. A month ago, two months ago, Japan has finally agreed on regulations for “what is whiskey”. And that won't be in effect until I think 23 or 24. But they are finally, now, you know, they're in the global market now. So that now, expectations of transparency and, you know, following manufacturer's guides, is going to be important. Now, prior to that, it was tradition. It was like, whatever the whiskey makers said was whiskey was whiskey, and then you kind of went with it. But it's different.
Alison: Let's get to Sue and Short Hills, New from Short Hills, New Jersey has been holding. Hi, Sue. Thanks for calling in. What's your question?
Sue (caller): Hi, thanks for taking my call. I am in possession of two unopened bottles of Seagram’s Crown Royal from 1961.
Robin: Oh my god. So great.
Sue (caller): So I wondered if, unfortunately I'm not a whiskey drinker and wanted to know what you know, do they have value? And should I give them as a gift?
Robin: Oh, okay. This is a wonderful question. And I have a corollary story to go along with this. So I was gifted, a neighbor of mine and gave me a 1959 bottle of Crown Royal, you know, with a tax stamp intact, you know, in the little pouch that comes in, and I had a 2015 Crown Royal that was, at one time, regarded as “the best whiskey in the world”, a $29.95 bottle of whiskey. And for about two years, I kind of sat on both of them and didn't do anything and I finally opened them up and started tasting them side by side. Now, let me give you the answer to your question.
These are valuable, but not as valuable as you may think. They’re more valuable, like all whiskey if you open it up and share it with friends who will appreciate it.
What I did was I tasted both of those whiskey 60 years apart. And I found there was a DNA in the middle that absolutely identified it as Crown Royal. So for me that was sort of, you know, a testament to the methodology and a testament to blending and a testament to consistency over 60 years, even though each of them the ‘59 nd the 2015 were distinct as well. So, you know, I think they're gonna bring a 1962 it may bring a couple of $100 on the internet market, you can actually go up and check the auction markets on that, but I think they're more valuable if you open them up and or gift them to somebody who really appreciates it.
Alison: Let's go to Duff on line two, Duff, thanks for calling All of It. What's your question for Robin Robinson?
Duff (caller): Hey, good afternoon, guys. First of all, great show and I couldn't think of a better topic. Just wanted to run something by you here. In my experience, it seems as though the Canadian whiskies get a bad rap. Is there something about either the process, the ingredients or like you say, government regulations in Canada that make the whiskey I guess, less, or I guess somehow looked down upon compared to other whiskies?
Robin: That's, that's, that's, that's great. Canadian whiskies suffered from stigma. They suffered from something that happened to them called the 1/11 rule, or the 9.09%. Essentially, they are allowed, as an imported item into the United States, they are allowed to put up to 9.09% of another flavoring agent in that and still refer to it as whiskey. If that's what they're going to export to the United States, and then they will get a break on their excise tax. Now think it from, think of this from the United States perspective, I'm going to ask you to dilute your product to sell it back to me, it doesn't make any sense, because Canadians don't drink that themselves, nor do they export it anywhere else. And that's why Canadian whiskey had kind of gotten
a, let's put this way: when the 21st century came and kicked off the whiskey revival, Canadian whiskey was sort of like left at the train station. And that was one of the reasons why, because it had the stigma. I will tell you right now that they're Canadian whiskies out there are world class, a couple of them dimension Alberta Rye, Lot 40, Gooderhaml and Worts,
Pikeville; these are absolutely stunning world class, absolutely terrific whiskies that, you know, these new whiskey makers are now sort of trying to get over, you know, that taint that had been there for a couple generations.
Alison: I got a question from Twitter. Thomas wants to know, question for guests. What's a good bourbon, not from Kentucky?
Robin: Oh my goodness. Well, bourbon, the rules of bourbon it can be made in any state, it's a unique American product, it can be made in all 50 states. So my response to this would find a bourbon made in your state. And give that a try. You'll be doing two things: you're going to be supporting a local distiller and local distillers especially now coming out of COVID really do need the support; and you're going to be finding something that would be really marvelous and a big surprise to you. There are also a bunch of bourbons that emanate out of a place called MGP. And that's a massive alcohol factory in Indiana that was formerly a Seagrams factory that made bourbons and ryes for all of the Seagram’s products. But then when Seagram’s went belly up in the year 2000, all the barrels were sitting there, until this new age of craft distillers started pulling barrels out of there, bottling them in their own name, while their own whiskies were sitting in barrels in their distilleries waiting.
So give me a couple right here. There's a wonderful one coming out of MGP right now called Tumbling Dice, okay. There was one here in New York. There's a couple of great bourbons here in New York. One is made at Kings County, in Brooklyn. Another one is made up in the Finger Lakes region under the name Mackenzie's. There are some great ones down in Virginia. There's Catoctin creek down there. There are some marvelous ones in Pennsylvania at Liberty Pole Spirits It's, there's Few spirits that's in Illinois.
Alison: I feel like you could go on and on. But you know, this is interesting. First of all our lines are full. So and I only got about my second page of questions. So we're gonna invite you back on the show and a couple of weeks because our listeners love whiskey.
Oh, we have a caller we're gonna we're gonna get back to for sure. Robin Robinson is the author of The Complete Whiskey Course A Comprehensive Tasting School in 10 classes Robin, we will talk to you again very soon.
Robin: Thanks, Alison.
The Complete Whiskey Course